tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post8860868286567757908..comments2024-03-27T08:49:38.786-03:00Comments on Siskoid's Blog of Geekery: New 52: Week 3 Batch 2Siskoidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-49409904008046711862011-09-25T19:50:20.229-03:002011-09-25T19:50:20.229-03:00Amen to that. Namaste to that. I have a young Germ...Amen to that. Namaste to that. I have a young German guy who translates my work. He has tales of simple bigotry between the old and the young in the small town where he lives. And to be honest, aside from telling new writers that I learned to write from reading comics, they help me forget the indignities...Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-64758616186762572052011-09-25T17:46:33.759-03:002011-09-25T17:46:33.759-03:00Which is why I prefer to live and let live, and me...Which is why I prefer to live and let live, and meet ever culture with a measure of tolerance and even interest. Culture in the widest sense of the word. I was raised on Star Trek, so I'm all about the IDIC.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-30471043932155648082011-09-25T17:33:10.363-03:002011-09-25T17:33:10.363-03:00Anon, we saw cleavage, now we can see ass and crot...Anon, we saw cleavage, now we can see ass and crotch shots again. That was more my point. But I understand yours.<br /><br />Siskoid, its hard to even list how many minorities there are on this continent (or just US/Canada alone). I feel for you even though I have no idea (without reading up on it) about Acadians. French-speaking, I know a bit about that. Not really off-topic, as we are talking about how out of touch DC is re: ethnic characters. Should we start a pool on which one will die first? And, of course, we have your excellent posts about Alpha Flight. It's not just about Don't Ask Don't Tell or me getting emails of watermelons in the Rose Garden simple because certain friends think that if I'm white and live in Chicago, I must certainly find that funny. When I think about it being almost 2012, all I can do is shake my head. For what it is worth, I feel for you in a way I'll never truly "get," because I'll never be in your part of Canada.Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-55284721017881997482011-09-25T09:26:43.877-03:002011-09-25T09:26:43.877-03:00Wayne: In my experience, there is a gulf of misund...Wayne: In my experience, there is a gulf of misunderstanding between the majority and any minority. Because it is outside their experience (and I mean something as vague as "being the member of a minority"), they cannot relate, understand the frustrations or why something would be offensive to said minority.<br /><br />I'm a straight white male, but I'm also a member of an "invisible minority" - a French-speaking Acadian. I've had a taste of what it means, though of course, English-speaking bigots in my province (they exist) can't tell from afar (and yet I've been screamed at from passing cars twice for just being near a French-speaking institution or wearing a French-language t-shirt). So I'm sensitive to these issues in a way that DC editorial may not be.<br /><br />Anon: I'm always wary of your argument that excuses a dodgy or poor decision with complete speculations of how it will get better. We'll see, but for the moment, all we've got is what's been published or solicited. As for the argument that they've reset the universe to what people are most familiar with, it falls apart when you consider that DC has not been consistent AT ALL about this. Superman is the best example. Robin isn't Dick Grayson. The Teen Titans are a far cry from the cartoon. Sinestro is Green Lantern. And so on. If there was a coherent strategy at work, I'd find it acceptable, but it's all half-measures.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-34376821505801465492011-09-25T05:04:03.404-03:002011-09-25T05:04:03.404-03:00"Now us fanboys can see the whole package any..."Now us fanboys can see the whole package any time DC decides."<br /><br />I've seen way more cleavage on Oracle than I ever did on Batgirl. I'm just sayin'.<br /><br />Are we perhaps missing the obvious: that the point of restoring Batgirl to the version used on multiple TV series, is that it is the version new readers will be most familiar with? They're trying to remove a barrier to reader accessibility, at least for issue 1 (the main jump-on point). Again, I hope Barbara returns to her Oracle gig; who knows, maybe Stephanie and Babs can share the comic, and be friends and stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-2807255665617379122011-09-25T01:38:03.256-03:002011-09-25T01:38:03.256-03:00The story I heard in regards to "The Killing ...The story I heard in regards to "The Killing Joke" is that Moore had intended it to be an "imaginary story" that didn't necessarily fit into continuity. It was a later editorial decision to make the crippling canon and give us Oracle. No facts to back it up, but that's what I heard.F. Douglas Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06497140550892192807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-75031460853914324742011-09-25T00:56:00.432-03:002011-09-25T00:56:00.432-03:00OK. Some of this started by me using the word '...OK. Some of this started by me using the word 'hot' to describe Babs. My original point was that she was just going to be used for her sexuality. I'm glad Simone avoided that, but I'll be damned if I understood the book. I liked the idea of PTSD, though.<br /><br />Anon, thanks for bringing up the other section of the Wiki entry. It is something how Moore will have quotes close to the one you mention about the Charlton characters but he'll whine later about DC reusing his characters.<br /><br />Being a 52 yr old comic geek, Batgirl wasn't truly retired at the time of TKJ. In an issue of COIE, she has a talk with Supergirl about not being able to deal with the crisis. I took that to mean a possible set-up where Babs dies, when it is Kara, in possibly the next issue. A year after TKJ, there was a Batgirl one-shot. She quits at the end, I can't even recall the story, but maybe someone at DC felt that such a story was needed. <br /><br />LiamKav, you are correct on Oracle's looks. I'm thinking of Howard Porter's work on Morrison's JLA. The one time somebody got it right was when Dick Grayson took Babs out of the chair, swinging on a rope and such, but making certain her legs were wrapped together at the calves.<br /><br />Going back to my use of the word hot, I'll expect top see gratuitous shots of Power Girl and Huntress in JSA. Babs was drawn well as Oracle. But in a static way. Now us fanboys can see the whole package any time DC decides. <br /><br />If I sound like I'm ranting (or close), its because of my own disability. Men will whistle at girls, they'll call me drunk or retarded. But I can better accept what blacks or overweight people go through on a daily basis. I worry that--given DC's mindset--Ryan Choi will be The Atom, and then get killed so Ray Palmer can take over.Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-64475508945815493242011-09-24T23:19:59.940-03:002011-09-24T23:19:59.940-03:00The thing that's often forgotten is that Babs ...The thing that's often forgotten is that Babs had already retired by the time The Killing Joke came out. Moore picked a character that people knew but that no-one had any plans to use to create his Big Shocking Story. It's not the same as, say, using Stephanie Brown, a character who was in active use but little known to the general public.<br /><br />Also, I don't recall Barbara ever being drawn as anything other than attractive while Oracle. Her legs were never drawn in a way where you could tell she hadn't walked on them for several years.<br /><br />As Siskoid said, they took the lemon of The Killing Joke and made lemonade by making her Oracle. Now, they've undone the good parts and left the bad. And yeah, there were a thousand story reasons how they could have healed her. But, to go back to continuity bottles, you have to ignore them the same way you ignore that Batman has access to alien tech and matter transporters during most issues of Detective Comics, otherwise lots of stories break down.LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-34530754345763558472011-09-24T19:45:30.603-03:002011-09-24T19:45:30.603-03:00But that's just it. The Killing Joke (which yo...But that's just it. The Killing Joke (which you find objectionable) IS still in continuity, while Oracle (which you defend as a good idea) doesn't seem to be.<br /><br />I'm fine with the argument that Oracle is fruit from the poisonous tree, but the fruit is gone, and the poisonous tree remains!Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-87952961630307902842011-09-24T18:50:00.498-03:002011-09-24T18:50:00.498-03:00Wayne: even Wikipedia has Alan Moore recounting th...Wayne: even Wikipedia has Alan Moore recounting that Len Wein said it was OK to "cripple the bitch". There are multiple parties to blame here, but Moore was the genius that gave us the idea of wrecking a character he personally had no affection for. Odd how writers never wreck the characters they like, at least not intentionally.<br /><br />There's diversity and then there's bad ideas; I say we tarnish diversity when it comes by way of bad ideas. If Gail Simone puts Babs back in a wheelchair -- and I suspect Gail plans to eventually -- I won't object provided it's done in a fashion that shows a lick of respect for the character.<br /><br />Suppose, just suppose, the Joker sees Babs Gordon walking around again, and decides to abduct her and wreck her legs again, just to prove a point. If Babs still manages to bring him down without use of her her legs, and maybe even saves some lives, I could respect that. Let's just skip the super-tasteful parts where the Joker strips her naked and photographs her, okay?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-62437555457014752312011-09-24T18:04:29.044-03:002011-09-24T18:04:29.044-03:00Actually, I think the problem IS how Babs got in t...Actually, I think the problem IS how Babs got in the wheelchair. It was a stupid shock value ruining of a character, and while I commend Ostrander for figuring out how to make use of a character that Moore did his best to ruin, I say the original ruining isn't worth respecting. If they want to keep it in continuity but also have Babs able to walk again, I'm good with that. If they want to say it never happened, I'm good with that too.<br /><br />This is not to say I have problems with a wheelchair-bound heroine; I just have problems with writers trying to wreck characters they have no use for. I don't have any great inherent fondness for Barbara Gordon, but I think she deserved better than what Moore did to her.<br /><br />We don't know much about the "miracle" that allows her to walk again, but if it's something that later results in a tough choice where she can either keep walking or save a life (don't ask me what that scenario would look like), and she chooses to save a life, I will be much more accepting -- then at least it won't be dumb shock value from a writer who probably isn't quite as brilliant as he thinks he is.<br /><br />Walking or not walking, I would like to see Babs return to Oraclehood, because you're absolutely right, the Batgirl niche is overloaded, while the Oracle niche is filled with cheap knock-offs at best.<br /><br />And yes, it's disingenuous for a writer to say, "You know, editorial really screwed up by not reining in my excesses." Then again, this is Moore, who once said, and I quote, "Oh goody, DC has acquired a whole bunch of Charleton characters, I know just how to wreck 'em". Okay, so that's not a quote.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-88989622629846766922011-09-24T17:54:43.122-03:002011-09-24T17:54:43.122-03:00Barbara can be hot AND in a wheelchair, as the Bir...Barbara can be hot AND in a wheelchair, as the Birds of Prey tv show proved, so that's neither here nor there. To me, it's a question of robbing the DCU of a unique character and standardizing such a character even as their press releases tout a commitment to "variety". It is not that far off from the "white-washing" of the past year (killing off heroes from different ethnicities and replacing them with white counterparts). At least they've gone back on many of THOSE in the new DCU.<br /><br />Is it the same as the hypersexuality of CW and RH&O? Not really, but it's still "gender/minority issues".<br /><br />I'm wary of the focus groups thing because you'd think the secret would have gotten out if they really had, and it doesn't jibe well with idea that editorial requested pitches from writers and took the best ones. The timeline's all wrong for both stories to be true.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-87099419706578231872011-09-24T17:43:17.056-03:002011-09-24T17:43:17.056-03:00Anon, I've also heard the phrase that DC told ...Anon, I've also heard the phrase that DC told Moore it was OK to "cripple the b!tch." Take Wikipedia for what it is, but I'm not trying to dump on you. Maybe I can say it better, is Babs "hot" if Simone showed her having trouble walking from her weakened legs (granted it wasn't a miracle cure)? Certainly there wouldn't have been shots of Batgirl jumping from rooftops. That was my point, not the word hot, rather the fact that her book can be thrown in with Catwoman and Red Hood.<br /><br />Focus groups are iffy, I can go to quite a few here in Chicago. One involved looking at print ads for vodka and which we like the best. My assumption would be that a group in Portland might get questioned on Batman, a group in Denver on the Teen Titans, or shown the TT costumes and asking what they thought of the dynamic. <br /><br />Siskoid: haphazard and thoughtless. As I've mentioned before, these are fanboys running things now, not middle-aged businessmen in suits. And the way it was rushed, perhaps, was because someone had the insane idea to put out 52 books in the same month.<br /><br />I appreciate everyone reading my comments and taking the time to reply.Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-76650566226012882322011-09-24T17:23:25.658-03:002011-09-24T17:23:25.658-03:00Batgirl/Oracle isn't the same issue as the Cat...Batgirl/Oracle isn't the same issue as the Catwoman/Starfire stuff, but it may be symptomatic of the same attitude. Why CAN'T we have female characters who deviate from the basic superheroine shape? Harvey Bullock didn't suddenly show up with Batman's physique, so why the double standard?<br /><br />The problem with Oracle isn't HOW Babs got into the wheelchair (and I find it a little disingenuous that Alan Moore would blame editorial for his own work's extremes - "it's the police's fault they didn't stop my murder"), but what was done with the character later. Oracle wasn't prefigured by The Killing Joke. It was a new lease on life given to the character by John Ostrander in Suicide Squad. What's sad about the Batgirl thing is that DC robbed itself of a unique character and concept to overload an already filled niche (I don't just mean that there have been two other viable Batgirls, but that they also publish Batwoman).<br /><br />I read that they used focus groups, but I don't know how true that is given how many writers didn't even know the relaunch was coming and how quickly it became a reality. DC wasn't even planning on the Relaunch a matter of months ago. And it shows in the haphazard and thoughtless way many of these changes were done.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-15248289022356964122011-09-24T16:38:35.079-03:002011-09-24T16:38:35.079-03:00Read the Wikipedia entry on "The Killing Joke...Read the Wikipedia entry on "The Killing Joke"; Alan Moore says that he feels editorial should have reined him in on what he did to Babs.<br /><br />Just because Babs can walk again doesn't mean that hotness is a factor. That's really quite a charge to level, especially in the absence of fanservice scenes like with Catwoman and Starfire.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-18632438129232257162011-09-24T15:26:13.815-03:002011-09-24T15:26:13.815-03:00Sorry for the typos, meant to read through before ...Sorry for the typos, meant to read through before clicking. Men, not mean, is the most confusing of the bunch. <br /><br />But I wonder, in regards to market research, did DC even consider Barbara Gordon choosing to be Oracle instead of returning as Batgirl? I've done focus study groups where it seems as if the answers accepted by the client are limited to those they already intended to use, with perhaps a little tweaking involved.Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-46412456273074364482011-09-24T15:12:33.817-03:002011-09-24T15:12:33.817-03:00I'm glad my last paragraph last night provided...I'm glad my last paragraph last night provided further comments. Anon, Babs IS hot again--though its not the word I would use--because she's obviously not atrophied after three years in a wheelchair. (She does mention having the great upper body strength, so there has to be an opposite.) Does Alan Moore regret writing TKJ? I hadn't heard that, I usually hear about how he laughs off DC editorial for taking one of his characters as the main villain of Blackest Night as they have no originality. (Point being, Babs in the chair was original.)DC could have used Wonder Woman's Purple Ray on her any time they felt it was needed, and there's no reason to think that Babs could walk again but still choose to be Oracle.<br /><br />LiamKev, maybe a little of both, though I didn't mention Waller. When I read comments about sexuality over at CA, I feel sad that those protesting that women aren't being treated as objects because mean are, as well, that just reads of desperation. Look at any single variant cover by Michael Turner, et. al., and tell me that DC would put Jason Todd or Superboy on a cover and expect it to sell for the same reason. I think we both agree, we all do. Siskoid, I would be curious as to how much market research was done and by whom and to whom.Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-45252128573359233152011-09-24T12:31:15.581-03:002011-09-24T12:31:15.581-03:00Supervillainy is a job; superheroism is a hobby.Supervillainy is a job; superheroism is a hobby.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-21586837073369787032011-09-24T12:23:05.231-03:002011-09-24T12:23:05.231-03:00"Babs is hot again"
I don't think &..."Babs is hot again"<br /><br />I don't think "hotness" factors into that one at all. I suspect it has to do with the awareness that Babs was gravely injured for shock value and even Alan Moore regrets it in retrospect. I'm glad Barbara can walk again, I'm glad Roy Harper has his arm back (apparently), and I'm glad DC has taken this opportunity to repair some of their inventory rather than leave it broken. Next step: write better stories and rely less on shock value / titillation; even 18-34 year old males get sick of the BS.<br /><br />(I also think Babs should eventually decide that DC needs an Oracle again more than it needs yet another Bat-themed street fighter, especially when Stephanie is probably around; but that's a different discussion.)<br /><br />This time I got "peepin" as my verification word but I think I'll just stick with my weehat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-32597925914124705592011-09-24T08:45:30.581-03:002011-09-24T08:45:30.581-03:00Swell: Don't worry, there were none of the usu...Swell: Don't worry, there were none of the usual Spam catchphrases, so even if you had written it, that'd be fine. Gotta promote your stuff SOMEtimes (so long as it's on-topic of course). Julian's article is good. Heroes inherit of course because... all their parents are dead. It's a thing.<br /><br />Wayne: I totally get (and share) your "don't sweat the small stuff" attitude, and certainly none of my comments have been written in the spirit of sincere outrage. However, I do believe that the media, like everyone else, have a responsibility towards the society we live in. Depictions of women and minorities in media IS important because it either encourages negative stereotype or breaks it. Whether we like it or not, comics are geared towards young white adult males (at this rate, anyway). So encouraging the idea that women are sex objects or that no one wants to see an overweight or handicapped woman is a complete misunderstanding of 1) where social norms are at and 2) what your responsibility is as a peddler of a product that taps into the youth market. Cater to your Maxim fans if you want, DC, but I know kids who watch Brave and the Bold and then want to read about those characters in the comics. So long as the Teen Titans cartoon is out there (on DVD), and so long as Tiny Titans is out there, DC has a responsibility to readers who outgrow one and need a bridge to the other. Outlaws is NOT that bridge.<br /><br />Liam: I like the points you make. I don't know what kind of market research DC did to prepare for the New52 (not as much as they should have, by the looks of it), but will they actually get more readers by doing this? Or are those creators and editors just that lascivious?Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-23671076155531595512011-09-24T07:32:40.772-03:002011-09-24T07:32:40.772-03:00"DC cares about money, Babs is hot again and ..."DC cares about money, Babs is hot again and between Starfire and Catwoman, guys can sit on trains and buses with boners under their iPads."<br /><br />That's what I don't get. Are there really people out there who want to read comics but just can't because Amanda Waller is fat?<br /><br />(Although, I've never got that attitude in general. Are there people who only watch sports because at half time some attractive girls will dance? I can understand very well "men want to see hot women", but there's a million and ones ways to do that. Wanted, or needing it in your comics as well seems unnecessary.)LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-77318557000618252082011-09-24T03:31:08.874-03:002011-09-24T03:31:08.874-03:00I know this is off-topic, but I came across an int...I know this is off-topic, but I came across an intriguing article by Julian Sanchez re: power and wealth as portrayed in comics b/w heroes and villains. <br /><br />If you've not already seen it, you can read it here:<br /><br />www.juliansanchez.com/2011/09/21/ceos-in-comics-villains-earn-heroes-inherit/<br /><br />Oh, yeah . . . and I'm not the guy that wrote the article, this isn't some kinda scam to drive people to my site. It's just that I've been coming here for a while, I saw the article, I thought you'd find it interesting.Swellsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05593178312657435749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-78188473241554642432011-09-24T03:22:55.175-03:002011-09-24T03:22:55.175-03:00@LiamKav, just saying that Hudson had some good po...@LiamKav, just saying that Hudson had some good points. I haven't read Red Hood (and see no reason to) so I'm curious about this memory problem Starfire has now. But she was sexed up in Countdown to Adventure, as well, more played for laughs as she was a Buddy Baker'ds house, so there were the kids, the neighbors, Ellen...<br /><br />I didn't read Laura's article wrong. I'm just not taking a stand on either side, because it won't change anything. I was born with cerebral palsy, I'm not in a wheelchair, but I was pi$$ed to hear about Batgirl. Again, why argue? DC cares about money, Babs is hot again and between Starfire and Catwoman, guys can sit on trains and buses with boners under their iPads.Wayne Allen Salleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199261942617339556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-56400259040711476242011-09-23T23:39:21.669-03:002011-09-23T23:39:21.669-03:00Good call. I hope you're right.Good call. I hope you're right.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-2015282826131501212011-09-23T19:31:23.499-03:002011-09-23T19:31:23.499-03:00Outlaws, Outsiders... how's 'bout we just ...Outlaws, Outsiders... how's 'bout we just call it Outhouse and be done with it?<br /><br />Anyhow, I'd cite Roy's being surprised by her lack of memory as evidence at least pointing towards her not having been like that during the New Teen Titans portion of the nuTimeline, however compressed that will have to have been...Jeff R.noreply@blogger.com