tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post1225593669093173392..comments2024-03-27T08:49:38.786-03:00Comments on Siskoid's Blog of Geekery: Doctor Who #842: The End of Time Part 2Siskoidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-5369861537372311272014-03-13T19:53:50.612-03:002014-03-13T19:53:50.612-03:00That's now how I took it, don't worry. I&#...That's now how I took it, don't worry. I'm many things, but rarely what I'd call "defensive".<br /><br />It must be an insane pressure to be showrunner AND write as many episodes as these guys do. Davies has written some great things in the Whoniverse (among them, Children of Earth), but time pressure and the relative lack of editorial check can also disappoint. The same is true of Moffat's work.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-61327845526071921792014-03-13T17:46:41.117-03:002014-03-13T17:46:41.117-03:00Sorry buddy, didn't mean to imply criticism of...Sorry buddy, didn't mean to imply criticism of your criticism! Apart from anything else you're completely right about RTD's faults, and unfortunately they were very much in evidence over the course of the last year. I'd hate to come across as someone jumping up and down in anger over a completely valid opinion.<br /><br />Leaving everything meta aside, it doesn't matter a jot WHO the showrunner is or what they're responsible for if they fail on their own merits to tell a good story. And by his own admission RTD would leave things till the last minute before (or even after) a deadline to get started on work, so his rep as a first-draft-only writer is deserved, no doubt.Madeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-38398916618885070022014-03-13T15:07:58.401-03:002014-03-13T15:07:58.401-03:00One of my favorite RTD innovations is the involvem...One of my favorite RTD innovations is the involvement of the companions' families; that's something I don't think most showrunners would have been bold enough to do, but RTD took a risk and it paid off handsomely.<br /><br />Making the Doctor the last Time Lord was another bold move, but it paid off.<br /><br />I never liked a young Doctor -- I'm still a Pertwee man at heart -- but RTD went for younger and action-oriented rather than older and professorial, and that too paid off.<br /><br />I have my problems with the RTD run but I can think of a hundred ways a "Doctor Who" revival could have completely misfired, and the RTD version WORKED, flaws and all. Therefore, RTD wins.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-33506179733058762912014-03-13T14:13:59.756-03:002014-03-13T14:13:59.756-03:00That sounds like something that might certainly be...That sounds like something that might certainly be possible after the pilgrimage is done (June?).<br /><br />And I completely agree with you guys about what Whodom owes RTD. I'm just reviewing the stories on their own merits, but with hindsight, and things that played BIG at the time, now can seem trite or manipulative. I certainly don't meant to sound ungrateful!<br /><br />Similarly, the oft-criticized JNT kept the show alive when everything was set to get it cancelled, and it might not exist today if not for his efforts in the 80s (it built the fandom that later became writers and producers), and yet, the story were often riddled with problems, many JNT's direct responsibility.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-67748348479632551962014-03-13T14:03:55.018-03:002014-03-13T14:03:55.018-03:00(God, I'm posting a lot on this thread. I'...(God, I'm posting a lot on this thread. I'm going for run soon so I'll stop then).<br /><br />It's hard to rememeber that RTD wasn't just a scripteditor or showrunner. As Madeley said, he was the one that got the show bought back. He was the one that thought about the format. He was the one that, step by step, allowed it to reclaim it's position as The Show Everyone Talks About. He essentially bought back the idea of "Family TV" to the UK, after it had been all but abandoned, which led to Merlin, Robin Hood, and a variety of other shows still ongoing. He gave kids their own hero with the Sarah Jane Adventures. He (apparently) stopped Big Finish from losing their licence to do old Dr Who stuff when everyone else lost theirs. And he made David Tennant a national institution. In 40 years time, he'll be having emotional scenes with the 21st Doctor and making all us old people gasp and cry and laugh.<br /><br />So yeah, RTD often looked like he only ever produced one draft. And things often didn't make sense. But he obviously worked bloody hard at the show. And I think the successes outweighed the failures. So I salute you, Russel "The" Davies.<br /><br />Quel Dommage, Davros. Quel Dommage, indeed.<br /><br />(I know you sort of touched it before with your "periods of Dr Who" post, but maybe an analysis of the showrunners/script writers? Or at least RTD and Moffat?)LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-85153948938983733692014-03-13T12:34:29.023-03:002014-03-13T12:34:29.023-03:00Personally, I think if anyone 100% completely dese...Personally, I think if anyone 100% completely deserves a bit of vanity and a lot of triumphalism, it's Russell T. Davies. For all the criticism the last 20 minutes gets from people, I think RTD gets to end his tenure on the show however the heck he likes. His achievement is incredible, and utterly unlikely the more I think about it. He took a dead show and turned it into easily the most popular science fiction series globally, and was the driving force behind turning BBC Wales (up until then a minor regional station) into one of the most important centres of broadcasting in the UK. If he wants 20 minutes of melancholy, overindulgent reflection? The man deserves it.<br /><br />Story-wise, all the final specials suffer in some way, and I think there's probably a bit of truth in the idea that neither RTD or Tennant really wanted to let go, and let things run on longer than they should have. Even so, there are so many nice bits, particularly between the Doctor and Wilf, that it doesn't really bother me.<br /><br />As for what was going on with the two shamed council members, I was under the impression that some parts of the script had input from Moffat with regards to where he was going with his run, so perhaps this (like the first mention of the Moment) will pay off when Gallifrey finally returns (having said that, the only reference to Moffat input I can find with a cursory Google is the fact that everything after the regeneration, i.e. Matt Smith's first scene, Moffat wrote.)<br /><br />Like Jeff, my best interpretation for the woman's identity is Susan. She's the only family member of the Doctor's we've seen before, and would reflect the grandfatherly themes of the Doctor's interactions with Wilf, to boot.<br />Madeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-38899876005001736802014-03-13T12:15:51.157-03:002014-03-13T12:15:51.157-03:00Sorry Jeff, I don't think I'm ready to tac...Sorry Jeff, I don't think I'm ready to tackle that subject until Day of the Doctor itself!Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-73653893545889860312014-03-13T12:08:02.097-03:002014-03-13T12:08:02.097-03:00No, they make a point of saying that "the cou...No, they make a point of saying that "the council has plans of their own" during DOTD, heavily implying that the "plan" is what we see here. The "council" we see in DOTD is presumably a war council of some kind, rather than the high council. That does still leave the whole order up in the air. Did Gallifrey vanish from Kasterborous, appear above Earth, get zapped back before the Daleks had noticed, and then get zapped somewhere else by the 13 Doctors?LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-53006184917656320882014-03-13T12:03:21.612-03:002014-03-13T12:03:21.612-03:00I still say that the woman in white was Susan (and...I still say that the woman in white was Susan (and that the 'The Doctor's Mother' is silly no matter who's tried to propound it), and also that the dissident disintegrated in the first Time Lords sequence was Romana.<br /><br />But I really wanted to see the Theories section take a stab at what's going on here, post-Day of the Doctor. I don't think that simultaneously erasing these events while having them still having happened in another sense is possible under the Who time travel rules, at least not without deliberate effort to make it so with a paradox engine. So should we assume that this High Council fled Gallifrey at some point before the planet was saved? (Are any of the same people shown to be in charge in 'Day'?)Jeff R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-89848527932778242582014-03-13T11:21:41.398-03:002014-03-13T11:21:41.398-03:00I didn't like the Amy thing because I thought ...I didn't like the Amy thing because I thought it was taking away from Carla being there. Whereas for the Tenth Doctor, he had no current companion, so going back over all of them and ending at Rose was fine.<br /><br />On a meta-level, Tennant's "I don't want to go" still works, I think. This is a guy who at one point considered staying for Moffat's first season, at least long enough for Moffat to have a version of season 5 planned out with Tennant as the lead. A person insisting that they have to move on, but when the time comes saying that they were wrong and they actually want to stay is something most people can relate to.LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-33400226618491886862014-03-13T10:39:06.965-03:002014-03-13T10:39:06.965-03:00On a meta-level, "I don't want to go"...On a meta-level, "I don't want to go" just left me shouting at the screen "You don't have to--you chose to go!" Yes, I know I shouldn't, but to me it's an indication of what a false note the mawkishness strikes, as the how episode is vain triumphalism masked as self-pitying faux-tragedy.<br /><br />No words on how Martha and Mickey met & got married? What happened to her old fiancee? Just another indication that this story was RTD doing his own fanfic, methinks, along with the whole 20 minute "visit all the companions tour." Odd that many people who begrudged 10 seconds of Amy Pond in Time Of The Doctor had no problems with the far more self-indulgent review here.<br /><br />Also, let's face it--Timothy Dalton was largely wasted. He didn't really do anything, just showed up and talked a bit. Disappointing for Rassilon, original or not...snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06181997862745538999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-26921853151540437462014-03-13T10:36:43.755-03:002014-03-13T10:36:43.755-03:00You can almost break it down into three parts: the...You can almost break it down into three parts: the actual plot of the Time Lords returning, the Doctor's final reward, and the Eleventh Doctor's beginning.<br /><br />As I said, regeneration SHOULD be a big deal. It's the main character dying. The fact that he carries on, the same but different, is the best having your cake and eating it conceit ever, but in dramatic terms it should be treated similarly to death.<br /><br />This story did introduce the "reset" before regeneration idea, which I really don't like. I understand it's so that the actor/character can do their final scenes "at their best", but it robs some of the drama from the idea that a person has basically been killed, and the only way for them to survive is to change everything about themself. It gets more of a pass here because there is some payback in the form of the regeneration being especially violent and angry, but for Smith's I feel cheated. (Yeah, I'm gonna have a fair bit to say once we get there. I might have warmed up to the episode a bit by that point...)<br /><br />I also think this episode cements an idea that had been brewing of the Doctor taking off in the Tardis before regenerating. At the time, I wondered why he did it, if the result could be so dangerous. But thinking about it, I take it to be the current incarnation wanting to do the thing he loves most one final time as himself. 5 does it first I believe, but 9, 9.5, 10 and 11 have all done it as well.LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-17107621527031898232014-03-13T10:22:44.624-03:002014-03-13T10:22:44.624-03:00Incredible how polarizing this story is, judging f...Incredible how polarizing this story is, judging from the comments!Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-88910587292309387922014-03-13T10:15:30.876-03:002014-03-13T10:15:30.876-03:00Hated this one. As I've said, in my view this ...Hated this one. As I've said, in my view this is the worst Doctor Who story ever.<br /><br />The regeneration I thought was awful. Mainly how it dragged on. It's 19 minutes from the him going in the capsule to regenerating. That's longer than most episodes of The Mind Robber (including credits), and I know which I preferred.<br /><br />"I don't want to go" was a rubbish last line. It was clear RTD was trying to play off the Caves of Androzanni regeneration (what with it being the best regeneration story, and him and Tennant both being Peter Davison fans), but there the Doctor just grimly accepts his fate (the way he winces when he drops the spectrox is all the shouting and crying he did, and yet with that look Davison conveyed all of those emotions so much better than was done here).<br /><br />I spent the last ten minutes of the "pointless angst tour" thinking "for &*%$'s sake just die already!". Smiths opening scene is one I liked a lot more in hind sight (as I really liked his first season, and thought his Doctor was a huge improvement on RTD's ersatz Jesus)<br /><br />But when it comes to rewatching, I'd still rather watch The Twin Dilemma and Timelash.CiBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-35887795336021287912014-03-13T10:13:39.643-03:002014-03-13T10:13:39.643-03:00Personally loved this episode, was in tears at the...Personally loved this episode, was in tears at the end. I would only change one single word in the whole thing, since I felt it was a massive missed opportunity.<br />When the Doctor meets Rose and asks what the year is, he should have then told her it would be a "fantastic" year, since it very much was.Freddynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-71305705248359967502014-03-13T09:59:26.171-03:002014-03-13T09:59:26.171-03:00Re: The woman in white. That's a fine theory, ...Re: The woman in white. That's a fine theory, Anon, but how does the Doctor recognize her? Who is she to him and how did she wind up in the High Council of Gallifrey?<br /><br />There are lots of possible answers to this mystery, but none of them make complete sense.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-92161373646755412622014-03-13T09:41:02.831-03:002014-03-13T09:41:02.831-03:00I swear the woman in white was supposed to be Donn...I swear the woman in white was supposed to be Donna or a descendant of Donna or something, whether or not RTD knew it. It fits in with Donna's still having some Time Lord abilities, it explains why she connected with Wilf in particular. And, Donna was the only other woman in white on the show -- at the wedding. (You may recall Wilf asks "who was that woman?" and the Doctor doesn't answer, but instead he looks at Donna and starts talking about another topic.)<br /><br />Jessica Hynes can do no wrong, and certainly not in this episode.<br /><br />First time I saw 10's rather mawkish end, I liked it less than I did this time. Things I didn't notice the first time:<br /><br />1) The Doctor stopping his rant at Wilf when he realizes he has lived too long; he's starting to sound like the Master or Timothy Dalton wanting to live forever, and he knows it. Good call, and it ties into the themes of this episode.<br /><br />2) The Doctor visiting his friends seems to be making sure they're not alone. That way it's less a sentimental trip than taking care of business.<br /><br />I still didn't like that final "I don't want to go", but what the hell, a Doctor's entitled to love his latest incarnation. But I don't like how Moffat played that up as vanity later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-40347678131950031312014-03-13T09:28:59.370-03:002014-03-13T09:28:59.370-03:00I remember crying at the whole regeneration thing....I remember crying at the whole regeneration thing. You are right, "I don't want to go" is a bit of a selfish line, both for the character, and for RTD himself who is making Moffat and Smith's job so much harder right from the get go. But it is an emotional gut punch. It makes you shout "then don't go!" at the screen. Forget the heavy burden it places on the Eleventh Doctor, it makes you beg the Tenth to stay, and in the idea of making regeneration a Big Thing, it works.<br /><br />Approaching Smith's regeneration, I wondered what they were going to do. Ten and Nine's are similarly staged if different in emotion, so I was kinda hoping they'd try something different. After seeing it, I'm not sure it worked, frankly. A regeneration should be a Big Moment, and Smith to Capaldi was a bit rushed. (Which I get was the idea, but still.) I've come away thinking that this regeneration might be hard to top for sheer emotion and spectacle.<br /><br />One thing I love in the Doctor/Wilf scene is how the pair of them keep swapping roles. Both of them are the father-figure, both of them are the trained soldier giving advice to the other. And "Wilfred, it's my honour" also makes me tear up.LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.com