tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post5906164721552559575..comments2024-03-27T08:49:38.786-03:00Comments on Siskoid's Blog of Geekery: RPG Talk: My Problem with MagicSiskoidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-49946938616480438442015-07-26T15:22:48.329-03:002015-07-26T15:22:48.329-03:00A very good point! I hate tracking fatigue, or eve...A very good point! I hate tracking fatigue, or even attribute attrition caused by wounds. Just hate it.<br /><br />Is spell attrition wrapped up in this feeling?Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-43339180163902328082015-07-26T15:14:29.728-03:002015-07-26T15:14:29.728-03:00"The warrior doesn't have X number of swo..."The warrior doesn't have X number of sword strikes in her, does she? The thief doesn't suddenly fall off a wall because he spent the total number of feet he could safely climb. " - only because having everyone at the table track fatigue levels or stamina points gets old fast even if such a mechanic could be easily tracked and has a fair degree of verisimilitude. Folks seem to be more comfortable using points (or slots) to track exceptional/supernatural activity; for some odd reason we don't tend to imagine thieves climbing walls or warriors beheading dragons to be all that exceptional...<br />JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-85668607370452231662015-07-22T15:11:53.528-03:002015-07-22T15:11:53.528-03:00I think you've almost reached a Truth here, Ro...I think you've almost reached a Truth here, Ro. Rules are limitors, while magic is meant to destroy limits, so there's an innate paradox to the way it's often handled in RPGs.<br /><br />Magic is perhaps better served as a matter of environment, where the players are exposed to magic, but can't use it as a tool... Hm... I'm going to think about that.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-72184120660263520412015-07-22T14:40:37.829-03:002015-07-22T14:40:37.829-03:00I cannot comment any of the post 80's versions...I cannot comment any of the post 80's versions of D&D. This discussion has made me rethink my own designs of spells. Typically, they (my spells and miracles) are designed to accomplish some crypt opening type task, flying through the air, healing and inflicting damage. The real question is, what is the purpose of magic? By just thinking about it as a way to do mundane things (such opening doors, finding swag and blasting your opponents) I have limited what magic is really good for....i.e.,doing things that are "magical". As far as game mechanics, I think every player should have the stuff to be an equal participant at all times, if they desire. Being a spell user/miracle worker should not be the limitation.Rohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10471634306831481598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-67186461349493979952015-07-22T11:22:17.814-03:002015-07-22T11:22:17.814-03:00Good to know, AmHawk. I keep riffling through the ...Good to know, AmHawk. I keep riffling through the new books, though I don't think I need to invest in a new edition of D&D, not when my tastes run counter to classic sword & sorcery anyway.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-74558279883898445212015-07-22T11:16:23.459-03:002015-07-22T11:16:23.459-03:00Let me start off by saying that if you like 4th Ed...Let me start off by saying that if you like 4th Edition, great! I'm happy for you. It just wasn't for me because of, not just what Delta said in execution, but because of the wholesale disregarding of what had gone before. The Vancian Magic system has real issues, but tossing it utterly is an issue for me. (5th Edition fixed the flaws entirely for me, thank goodness.) It doesn't feel like D&D without it, and if I just wanted a fantasy game, I have other options. Tossing out the Planescape mythos for a much less interesting combo was a killer for me too. It's like the New Coke debacle... even if you liked it better, the loss of the original stung. Fortunately, 5th Edition fixed ALL of my complaints. American Hawkmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-91193157483618749762015-07-22T10:42:27.131-03:002015-07-22T10:42:27.131-03:00Personally, I like the D&D distinction between...Personally, I like the D&D distinction between class systems: Fighters are mundane and can do the same thing turn after turn; Wizards are exotic and have powers which will be used rarely for larger effect (like the flavor difference between scoring in basketball vs. soccer, for example). I agree with Ro Annis that the fiddly limitations introduced in AD&D (casting segments, initiative limitation, etc.) were a misstep. I find that if you make it mysterious/unpredictable -- including even saving throws -- that players quickly start complaining that if Wizards have limited shots, then they should be more dependable than Fighter attacks, not less. <br /><br />Speculation on American Hawkman's grief with 4th Ed. D&D: It specifically collapsed the class systems so there was little mechanical difference between them. Fighters got special once-a-combat and once-a-day powers (like an uber-attack, or moving an opponent across the battlefield). Wizards get also are given at-will every-round attacks (like a minor magic missile usable at any time). So there's no real mechanical difference, only the "skinning" is different. Some people like that, but I think it's a bad idea -- having mechanical distinction gives depth to the class identity, extending it into the real world as something that needs to be dealt with. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-52830308336370982762015-07-21T15:12:36.629-03:002015-07-21T15:12:36.629-03:00I stopped at 2nd (#old), what's so wrong with ...I stopped at 2nd (#old), what's so wrong with 4th?Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-33807883718175372562015-07-21T15:05:33.170-03:002015-07-21T15:05:33.170-03:00I've always been the guy who liked magic syste...I've always been the guy who liked magic systems, to the point where I think a fantasy rpg lives or dies based on them. I care intensely and irrationally about the laws of magic, the lore behind it, and the like. That was the first two strikes against 4th Edition D&D for me. American Hawkmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-49852719798875981402015-07-21T14:07:13.668-03:002015-07-21T14:07:13.668-03:00I think it comes down to 2 elements. First, what i...I think it comes down to 2 elements. First, what is the role of the Spell caster? Are they just extra powerful archers, with excellent ranged attacks? Is the game heavy on combat/action? Because in those games at least 50% of the spells never get used, except in the hands of the most creative wild card players.<br /><br />Second, what do you want Magic to do? Do you want Gandalf. who almost never actually used Magic? Or do you want an Elminster, who can just turn people to newts, or blast them to pieces. Fortunately in modern systems it is easier to survive at the lower levels until you finally get the ability to do massive damage.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05040203844247479653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-12719310849316805332015-07-21T13:10:48.165-03:002015-07-21T13:10:48.165-03:00Interesting inversion!Interesting inversion!Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-29166845642487375792015-07-21T12:01:43.849-03:002015-07-21T12:01:43.849-03:00I never liked the spell slot thing from D20 games-...I never liked the spell slot thing from D20 games- but then again I cut my teeth on Shadowrun 1st edition where spellcasting was a skill and it was the gunbunnies that ran out of ammunition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-48594678066737622042015-07-21T11:45:55.059-03:002015-07-21T11:45:55.059-03:00I've yet to use or adapt GURPS' improvised...I've yet to use or adapt GURPS' improvised spellcasting, nor have I read that chapter in GURPS Magic in a long time, but I'm wondering if that wouldn't be my all-access pass.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-23055706962670108822015-07-21T10:55:25.307-03:002015-07-21T10:55:25.307-03:00I always liked playing spell users. But it was a ...I always liked playing spell users. But it was a little like being punished. Did the warrior have to pick which weapons he(she) was allowed to use that day beforehand? Two swings and you forget how to swing? Get bumped and lose the spell? Wait, here is a spell that's actually good...oh it takes 3 segments to cast. WTH? I thought wizards were powerful. As a spell user there was too much sitting around waiting for scraps from the warriors, who were having a good time rolling their dice so much, you could hardly read the worn numbers. This is one of the many reasons I bailed on D&D. Just as I was about to have fun, the stupid rules got in the way.Rohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10471634306831481598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-11702610518741630992015-07-21T09:27:02.772-03:002015-07-21T09:27:02.772-03:00Of course, we don't play sword&sorcery gam...Of course, we don't play sword&sorcery games much at all anymore - much less D&D - which may be part of the same disinterest in magic.Siskoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266365376486695812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37940560.post-68941484225700507252015-07-21T08:59:57.218-03:002015-07-21T08:59:57.218-03:00I am kind of the opposite. Mages, witches, clerics...I am kind of the opposite. Mages, witches, clerics are all my "go to" characters. I think I have only ever played one actual fighter (Paladins don't really count) and if I play thief he will be multiclassed with Bard, Illusionist or something else. <br /><br />For me magic is part of the fun.Timothy S. Brannanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923526503305233715noreply@blogger.com